Badwater Forum

Sounds like you are sitting in a smoke house, not a sauna. And I thought Death Valley was hot! I use a metal uninsulated shipping container in full sun. It has some weight lifting equipment in it. I workout in it when I really want to get heated up. I'll have to take a thermometer in with me next time. Sounds like you might need to take a basting brush.  Be careful, see you on the road. Greg

Yikes! When you think about water boiling at 212, your sauna sounds awfully hot.
But then, I don't know much at all about sauna training. I do my heat training in the car with the heater on and the windows rolled up, which only gets me to about 125. The only advice I can give is to be CAREFUL.

mye2angelz:

I second Greg's advice to be careful.

Everyone is different; what one can tolerate, another cannot, so there is no black and white answer here for you; furthermore,  because none of us knows your current training state and goals, it's impossible to give you advice as to exactly how much and how long is ideal for you.  You have to find the answer for yourself through training.

One thought I have is that increasing the time in the sauna while overlooking other, very important factors, such as adequate mileage training and hill training, will be of little benefit.  I mistakenly thought last year that excessive heat training is smart; I was wrong. 

However, there are basic guidelines on which I believe everyone will concur, irrespective of training state:  heat acclimation can occur within two-three weeks, and it can be accomplished via several methods:  sauna training, overdressed training, riding in a car with windows up and the heat blasting, and actually training in Death Valley or a similar climate (or a combination of some or all of these methods).

I conducted what was for me too much heat training.  Granted, I did not feel "hot" at any point during Bill's race; however, I had experienced endocrine and other health problems the months prior to the race and the excessive heat training exacerbated my symptoms.  I took corrective measures with my endocrinologist and now will be taking a new approach to heat training in preparation for my solo on July 1.  So you see...there's no substitute for trial and error experimentation.  We're all that "experiment of one" so to speak.

I, personally, chose passive training methods since I could not travel to Death Valley to train.  I heat trained for many months, to include: overdressed training in layers of black running tights, two long-sleeved Gore-Tex shirts, a Goretex jacket, black balaclava and black cap, and skiing gloves, and I ran outside in this spacesuit 2x/wk during the hottest portions of the day for about three months.  My sauna training consisted of:  140F the first several weeks, then 150F the following week, then 160F, and so on and so forth until I reached 180F and I maintained 180F for almost two months, 3x/wk, the session duration of which increased from 5 minutes (140F) to 45 minutes (180F).  I also drove around in my car with the heat blasting on the highest setting with the windows rolled up, but only on occasion and not before I conducted other heat training (except once, on my way to a spacesuit run, and that was a doozy of a training mistake, because I was exhausted during the run).

As an exercise physiologist, my professional advice to you is to not exceed 180F as I believe you would reap diminishing returns.  The ambient temperatures during the BW Ultramarathon are approximately 117-128F (higher closer to the pavement and not taking into account heat indeces) and only the pavement and other objects will register around 200F and more.

So, heat training at or above 180-190F from a training standpoint is not only unnecessary for this event, in my opinion, but potentially harmful as well.  There may be other, more experienced ultrarunners who disagree, however, but I doubt it.

An article you may find interesting that is entitled, "Dry Run" mentions the 2005 heat training of Lisa Bliss, MD.  Her sauna sessions consisted of 90 minutes at140F; however, it was in an infrared sauna that produced air similar to that in a desert climate, unlike a typical, health club sauna.  She exercised or slept during these 90 minute sessions.  She also conducted over-dressed training. The article can be found at the Kiehl's site:  www.badwater.com Once at the homepage, click on "Preparation" at the top and you will find the article under the "Heat Training and Preparation Articles" topic.

The general consensus is that light exercise in the sauna is not necessary; however, it works for some people, as in the case of Dr. Bliss.  I exercised one time in the sauna and had such a severe HR spike that I never did it again and have no plans to try again.

Keep in mind that by the time Dr. Bliss underwent this heat training, she had already accumulated a lot of ultrarunning experience, so what worked for her may not work for you, me, and others.

Is there a way for you to decrease the sauna temperature at your club when it exceeds 180-190F?  In the event club members cannot adjust the temperature, staff members will usually honor the request.

You'll find your way and I wish you the best of luck in your training.  Just ease into it and don't overdo it. 

Happy Trails,

Connie Karras
2006 Crew/pacer - Bill LaDieu, 54:50
2007 First Solo Crossing... 

=mye2angelz link=topic=170.msg540#msg540 date=1174661673]
I am from Florida.  I just got a membership to a health club with a sauna for heat training for ultra's.  I have read the article by Author Webb.  The last week of training is supposed to be 180 degrees for 45 minutes.  One slight problem is that the sauna temp is always at 190+ when i get in there.  The first time in I had no problem staying in there for 30 minutes and the temp actually went over 200 by the time i was out of there.  I am from florida and am probably already somewhat heat trained.  Should I just keep going in there at those temps?  Is there a temp that becomes dangerous?  Will it benefit me if i can stay in there at 205 degrees as opposed to someone who just goes to 180?  Will staying in there for more than 45 minutes help at all?  Or is 45 minutes the max?  Thank you for your responses and expect more questions back  :)

As someone who ran the Badwater Ultramarathon last year and is running again this year, I would have to say that Art Webb's insight is valuable.  However, even if your sauna thermostat reads 190, that temperature is being taking near the top of the sauna.  If you don't sit on the top steps at the very top, the temperature should be cooler nearer to the ground.  That being said, the best stategy for heat training is to simply sit and drink water regularly while in the sauna.  For me, running with 50 layers of clothes and parkas and whatever else on can significantly inhibit the natural running motion.  Being in Death Valley for me was simply like being in a very big sauna.  The thing you want to ensure in the heat is that your body will be processing liquids and food appropriately.  It's the nausea and the dehydration that will put you out of the race.  Even though I tried to run in warm weather (+100) in the early summer/late spring, I trained in the sauna using a similar schedule for about 2-3 months and quit almost a week before the race.  I think I maxed out at 180 degrees for 50 minutes.  Maybe it's partly genetics or the fact I was the youngest one out there at 28, but unlike some of the other competitors, I could have sworn I felt some cool breezes even when it was over 110.

Jonathan Gunderson
Badwater Ultramarathon 06', 07'

P.S. If any of you are interested, I am raising money for a non-profit Christian relief organization doing work in East Africa (Rwanda, Uganda).  I definitely invite you all to check out my website, http://www.seegundyrun.com.  I have info on the race, my journal/experiences, and a complete race video online.  Cheers!

mye2angelz:

Like Jonathan, I maxed out around the same amount of time (45 minutes).  So is it necessary to go longer?  No.  Would it benefit you in any way?  Who knows.  It does some people. 

If you are new to this and have never conducted heat training before, my suggestion to you is to not exceed around 45 minutes but just be sure you're drinking water as Jonathan said while in the sauna and training your body to conserve salt.  Do not go in the sauna without water; this defeats the purpose.  I did a sweat test:  when I first began the training, my sweat was pasty white.  After a few weeks, my sweat was clear.

Happy Trails,

Connie Karras
2006 Crew/pacer, Bill LaDieu - 54:50
2007 First Solo Crossing...

Jonathan Gunderson wrote:

I think I maxed out at 180 degrees for 50 minutes.  Maybe it's partly genetics or the fact I was the youngest one out there at 28, but unlike some of the other competitors, I could have sworn I felt some cool breezes even when it was over 110.

Jonathan Gunderson

Interesting discussion. I've never attempted sauna training, simply because I do not have access to a sauna. I've had a lot of questions about what is the optimum temperature and duration for heat training, though. I suspect Connie is correct that it varies a lot from individual to individual.

This will be my fifth year of heat training. From my own experimentation, and without access to a sauna, I've settled into this routine. As the spring grows warm, I make a habit of running in the warmest part of the day. I don't turn on the A/C in my house. I work outside a lot during the day. And then I turn the heat on in the truck every time I drive into town, which is about a 2 hour round trip twice a week. It helps, though, that I live in California's Central Valley, where the summer temperature is routinely above 100 degrees. Crewing twice and running twice, I've never had problems with the heat in Death Valley. My overall conclusion is that I (experiment of one) don't need to use the very high temperatures that some people are using. Longer duration at lower temperatured works just fine. However, I know that some people do not have this option because they live in a cooler climate. I'd just like to make the point that the really high temperatures may not be absolutely necessary.

I will add one interesting thing that I've noticed. Since the first year that I heat trained, I have noticed a permanent change in my ability to sweat. When I get the slightest bit warm, I POUR BUCKETS of sweat right away. I was never like this before. Now it happens even in the winter, when I am not heat training. I've found heat training to be easier with each successive year. There seems to be a cumulative effect. Has anyone else noticed this?

Marcia, how are you and John doing with the training? John we just need to keep rowing that boat ( that boat we are in working on more mileage and less weight to carry).
I am amazed at the amout of sweat produced when I do get to DV for a training run. Year after year it seems the process of liquid intake in the heat and sweating is easier. All last spring and early summer if the temp got over 100
I had to run. Between 11:00 and 3:00 I would stop doing whatever I was doing, run 10 miles come home and get back to whatever I was doing. This even worked while doing Honey do's. My wife knew I had to get in all the heat running I could get. I also drive in hot weather with the heater on. I also try to wear only long sleeve shirts just to get a little more heat all the time. Keep running.....Greg

Hi Greg,
From a DV perspective, I'm happy with my training at this point. I cranked out 80 miles this week, and still feel quite good. My overall plan is to average 50-60 mpw. Speed-wise, I'm pretty pathetic. I'm running American River in 3 weeks, and I expect that I'll barely scrape by the cutoffs. But for DV, I won't need much speed anyway. At least I've succeeded in dropping a few pounds. So I think, overall, I'll be ready for the Solo Crossing in July.
Overall, I think John's making good progress, but I'll let him tell his own story.